(CBS) BOB SCHIEFFER: Today on
Face the Nation, Secretary of
Defense Donald Rumsfeld on the
coming war against terrorism.
SCHIEFFER: What will this war look like? Is America prepared? We'll look at
this issue from all angles in a special expanded edition of Face the Nation.
We'll talk with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
We'll talk about how Pakistan is helping the United States with its
ambassador Maleeha Lodhi.
Three influential senators will give their views on the war and the terrorist
threat: John McCain, John Kerry and Bob Graham.
And we'll get expert analysis of the entire issue with former Defense
Secretary Bill Cohen, Tom Friedman of the New York Times, and Abby
Joseph Cohen of Goldman Sachs.
Gloria Borger will be here, and I'll have a final word on survivors.
But first, the Secretary of Defense on Face the Nation.
And the Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld is in the studio.
Thank you for coming, Mr. Secretary.
DONALD RUMSFELD, Secretary of Defense: Good morning.
SCHIEFFER: The Taliban now says that Osama bin Laden, they're seeking to
see if they can issue the request to tell him to leave. But they also say they
don't know where he is. Should we take them at their word?
RUMSFELD: Of course not. They know where he is.
SCHIEFFER: And what should we do, or what are we saying to them?
RUMSFELD: Well, I think we have to think about Afghanistan in a different
context. First of all, there are many Afghan people who are repressed, who
are starving, who are fleeing from the Taliban. There are any number of
factions within the Taliban that don't agree with Omar, the man who
contends that now they can't find the person they've been harboring for
years. There are many in the Taliban who prefer that the Taliban not harbor
Osama bin Laden and the al Qaeda network.
So it is not as though there is a front and that there are good guys and bad
guys.
There are many tribes. There's the Northern alliance, there are tribes in the
South. And it is a very different kind of a conflict and a problem. What we
have to do is to see that those who have been harboring terrorists stop
harboring terrorists.
SCHIEFFER: When you said that they know where he is, you sound very
certain of that. And how can you be so certain?
RUMSFELD: They know their country. They have been fighting against the
Russians there, the Soviets there for years. They've been fighting among
themselves and the tribes. They're hearty, tough people. They have
networks throughout the country, and it is just not believable that the Taliban
do not know where the network can be located and found and either turned
over or expelled.
SCHIEFFER: You have been understandably reluctant to discuss any kind of
troop movements. Certainly that's understandable. Let me just ask you the
general question: Is the United States now in a position to strike?
RUMSFELD: What we've been doing since the day of the attack is getting
our forces positioned in various places around the world. This is not an
Afghan problem, this is a worldwide problem of terrorist networks. And let
there be no doubt about it, that al Qaeda network is in at least 60 countries,
and they are just one of many networks.
And what we've been doing is getting our capabilities located, positioned,
arranged around the world so that at that point where the president decides
that he has a set of things he would like done, that we will be in a position to
carry those things out.
And second, the United States government, even more importantly, has been
getting itself arranged across the government. The Department of Treasury
and the State Department and the Central Intelligence Agency, as well as the
defense establishment, to help the world understand that it is a broad-based
effort, not a military effort alone. But it's going to have to go after political and
diplomatic and economic interests, financial interests.
GLORIA BORGER, U.S. News & World Report: Mr. Secretary, are you still
convinced that Osama bin Laden's network acted alone?
RUMSFELD: "Still" suggests I was once convinced of that, which was not
the case. I've never been convinced that that is the case.
BORGER: Well, are you convinced?
RUMSFELD: There's no way in the world that a network can function as
effectively over such a long period of time, with such excellent finances and
false passports and all of the intelligence information they had to have,
without the being fostered and facilitated and assisted and financed by
states and by businesses and by nongovernmental organizations and by
corporations.
It is a large network.
BORGER: Well, last week on this show, Colin Powell said that, as of that
moment, you had not found any Iraqi fingerprints, for example, on this
particular terrorist act. Is that still the case?
RUMSFELD: I am not going to reveal intelligence information about what we
know.
What we do know is that the states that are on the terrorist list, and Iraq is
one of them and so is Syria and so is North Korea and Cuba and so is Libya,
that those states have, over a period of time, harbored and assisted terrorist
organizations to engage in terrorist acts in other countries. That we know of
certain knowledge.
As the president said, what we're looking at today is how are those states
going to behave going forward.
SCHIEFFER: There is considerable pressure building in various quarters,
both in the Congress, some members of Congress and others around the
country, that we ought to go after Iraq. Are you feeling that pressure?
RUMSFELD: Well, I think the president has a set of decisions and
calculations he has to make. And he is making them. He's making them very
well, in my judgment.
This is not a quick effort, a battle, an event, television event with cruise
missiles ending it, with a signing ceremony on the Missouri at the end of
World War II. That isn't what this is about.
What the president is doing is he's looking at the totality of this problem and
the full capabilities of our country and of all the other countries that have
joined us. I mean, it's been a wonderful outpouring of support across the
world and in this country, because it's going to take that. It's going to take
people providing scraps of information that are going to enable us to do the
job we need to do to stop countries from helping these people.
SCHIEFFER: Let me just ask you about that. There are some reports that
perhaps we're not getting what we have asked Saudi Arabia for. Can you
comment on those reports?
RUMSFELD: We have, insofar as I'm aware, we have gotten everything
from Saudi Arabia that we have asked them to do. Now, if we had not asked
them to do some things. But I've been in touch with Saudi leadership and
there is no question but that they are our friends and that they are
determined to deal with this problem of terrorism just as we are.
The important thing, however, is that we have to remember that every
country has a different circumstance. And every country is not going to be
engaged or agree with or be involved in everything we do.
The message I would leave is this, that the mission determines the coalition.
And we don't allow coalitions to determine the mission.
SCHIEFFER: Secretary Powell said last week that Iran has made a rather
positive statement in all of this. He wouldn't give us any details of that, but he
said it is worth exploring. Have we explored, and where does that stand?
RUMSFELD: Well, United States government is exploring, with as many
countries as is humanly possible, ways that they can help us in this effort.
And we are getting help from countries in some instances that are
surprising. We are also getting help from people in countries that one would
be surprised. And we need that help because that information will be what
will help determine it, the outcome.
SCHIEFFER: Have we ruled out the use of nuclear weapons?
RUMSFELD: The United States, to my knowledge, has never ruled out the
use of nuclear weapons. We have always said, if you'll think back to the
Cold War, that we would not rule out the first use of nuclear weapons
because there was overwhelming conventional capability that we felt that
would add to the deterrent. And so we have never done that.
What we need to do it, seems to me, as a country, is to recognize how
different this situation is than the traditional. I mean, think of it. The deterrents
that worked in the Cold War didn't work. We were just hit by an
asymmetrical attack that President Bush, in his Citadel speech, before he
was ever sworn into office, cautioned the world about and said, we must
transform our military. He was right.
BORGER: Mr. Secretary, this morning, Time magazine is reporting that U.S.
law enforcement officials have found a manual on the operation of crop
dusting equipment. Does that mean that we now need to be concerned that
these terrorists were intent on dispersing chemical and biological weapons?
RUMSFELD: We can't know that for certain. We can suspect it.
And one of the other pieces of evidence that is clear in open publications,
we know that the countries that I just listed that have sponsored terrorism
for decades are countries that have very active chemical and biological
warfare programs. And we know that they are in close contact with
terrorist networks around the world.
So reasonable people have to say to themselves that, when you find that
kind of information, it ought to cause us to recognize that those are dangers
that we need to worry about.
And the way we worry about them, it seems to me, one way is to
re-energize our effort against the proliferation of these weapons of mass
destruction throughout the globe. It's a terribly important effort, and we've
got to get other countries to start working with us to a much greater extent
than they are.
SCHIEFFER: Two final questions: Number one, should the United States lift
the executive order that was issued by President Ford on assassinations?
And number two, can you tell us, does this operation have a new name, and
can you tell us what it is?
RUMSFELD: The executive order on assassinations that was signed by
President Ford is something that President Bush may or may not address,
and it's not for me to be making announcements on that subject. And I
honestly do not know if it's even under review at the present time. We have
plenty of things we can be doing without that.
SCHIEFFER: And what about the name of the operation?
RUMSFELD: The name of the operation is being changed. It'll probably be
changed later today, and we want to find a name that is representative of
the effort, and it certainly in no way at all would raise any question on the
part of any religion or any group of people.
SCHIEFFER: Mr. Secretary, thank you very much.
RUMSFELD: Thank you.
SCHIEFFER: Thank you.
When we come back, we're going to talk to the Pakistani ambassador,
Maleeha Lodhi, in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCHIEFFER: With us now, the Pakistani ambassador to the United States, Dr.
Maleeha Lodhi, a former journalist before she became a diplomat.
Dr. Lodhi, the United States is apparently going to lift the sanctions that were
imposed on Pakistan. I take it that is good news for your government?
DR. MALEEHA LODHI, Pakistani Ambassador to U.S.: Well, we
understand that - three layers of nuclear sanctions. My country has been
under multiple layers of sanctions for the last 10-11 years. We understand
that President Bush has waived the three layers of nuclear sanctions that
were imposed on Pakistan. We, of course, welcome this development. We
think it was long overdue. And we hope that this will open a new chapter in
relations between our two countries.
SCHIEFFER: There are reports from Islamabad this morning that your
government has said that it will try to moderate U.S. actions. What does that
mean?
LODHI: I think, as many other countries are also part of the international
coalition with the United States, we're all together in the fight against
terrorism.
We, not unlike the U.N. Secretary-General and many other people, would
obviously want an effective fight against terrorism, but also ensure that
innocent people don't suffer in this fight, and we do not do something which
is not measured, which is not reflective, which is not carefully targeted, so
that we can deal with the aftermath of the situation and not end up
exacerbating the crisis that we have at hand.
And we're quite confident, from what President Bush said in his own
speech, we were very reassured that the kind of response that he is
contemplating, he's indicating to us is indeed going to be multi-dimensional. It
will not just rely on military force alone. And that many other components off
that response will be kept in view and would be part of the international
community's response to this crisis.
BORGER: Madam Ambassador, would Pakistan allow the mobilization of any
western ground troops?
LODHI: I think, until the United States has evolved its operational plan and
gets into specific discussions with us, it would be very premature for me to
respond to that. And I'm not at liberty to get into operational details.
What my president, President Musharraf, has already told the people of
Pakistan is that the United States has asked for our airspace, logistical
support and sharing of intelligence information, to which our president has
said yes.
BORGER: But at this point, is anything off the table?
LODHI: The only thing that we have indicated is that it would not be possible
for Pakistani ground troops, Pakistani forces, to be enrolled in an operation
outside our border. But other than that, I think we have to wait and see once
the response has evolved. Only then will we be able to say, you know, how
we go down that road.
SCHIEFFER: Madam Ambassador, this is a very difficult thing for your
country. I think sometimes we don't appreciate that in this country, because
you have these fundamentalists opposition to your government. How safe is
your government right now?
LODHI: Well, I think the important issue to recognize is that the majority of
Pakistanis support President Musharraf in this decision that he has taken.
We did not ditter over this decision, as we did not ditter in the past when we
were called upon by the international community.
After all, the United Nations passed a resolution, the Security Council
resolution, asking the entire global community to unite in the fight against
terrorism. We are a responsible member of that international community.
And we did what we thought was in the best interest of Pakistan. And the
vast majority of Pakistanis are with us on this decision.
SCHIEFFER: How safe are the nuclear weapons that Pakistan has?
LODHI: Well, I think the kind of concerns that I've been hearing in the last
couple of days are really, frankly, overblown. We have strict custodial
controls over our nuclear assets. We have a very clear command structure.
We have a national command authority that deals with and has strict control.
And there is no question of any unauthorized element acquiring access to all
the materials that go into a nuclear capability.
BORGER: Can the Pakistani intelligence network find Osama bin Laden?
LODHI: Well, I think the fact that Osama bin Laden is in Afghanistan, which is
a sovereign country, I think it's a question that has to be addressed to the
Taliban leadership.
We, on our part, are ready to provide any kind of information that would be
useful for the international community, so that we all act together and we act
under international law. And you will see Pakistan delivering on its
international commitments.
SCHIEFFER: Madam Ambassador, thank you so much.
LODHI: Thank you.
SCHIEFFER: When we come back, we'll talk with Senator John McCain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCHIEFFER: We're back now with Senator John McCain, the chairman - or I
should say now the ranking Republican on the Senate Commerce Committee,
but a very influential person in Congress on economics, the airline industry.
The first thing I must say to you, Senator McCain, is, when I hear a
government official say, "Every option is on the table," and he says, "We've
never ruled out the use of nuclear weapons," that's a sobering thought.
Your comment?
